When the poet and artist Rupi Kaur arrived at an International Women's Day conference several years ago, she assumed that the legendary—and very busy—fashion designer Diane von Furstenberg would leave before she took the stage to close out the event. Instead, the conference marked the beginning of their friendship.
Both children of immigrants, the duo share an interest in empowering women—Von Furstenberg, through fashion (she is, after all, the inventor of the wrap dress), and Kaur, through art and poetry. Soon after Kaur published the anniversary edition of her surprise hit poetry collection Milk and Honey, the duo connected to talk about power in vulnerability, the art forms that speak to them, and the secrets to their success.
Diane von Furstenberg: I have your beautiful book in front of me and I am impressed by a lot of things. First of all, do you do the drawings?
Rupi Kaur: Yes, I do the drawings.
von Furstenberg: The drawings are as evocative and as powerful as the words! I mean, I know that you have an incredible skill with words, but I think the drawings are incredible. Tell me a little bit about where you were born, where you grew up, and when you discovered words.
Kaur: I was born in Punjab, which is in North India. But Punjabiness is sort of my identity. At three and a half, we moved to Canada. My dad was a political refugee, so he was already there, and my mom and I joined him three and a half years later. We moved around a lot. He was a truck driver; my mom stayed home and had three more children after me. I think I fell in love with words because for so many years, especially as a young child, I didn't have—
von Furstenberg: Anything else.
Kaur: Yeah. I was never empowered to use my voice or told that I had a voice.
von Furstenberg: I understand that very well.
Kaur: Since I was little, I felt [like I was] overflowing. Deeply empathetic, sensitive feelings. If I didn't put those feelings somewhere, I felt like I was going to burst. So, visual art was sort of my first love. I found written poetry in middle school, but I only began to use my voice to perform in the way you saw me perform this year later on in high school. When I found the stage and the microphone, it felt so electric. People were quiet, and they were listening.
von Furstenberg: You self-published, correct?
Kaur: Yes, I self-published. I finished the book at 21, put it all together, and then it came out after I turned 22.
von Furstenberg: Then what happened?
Kaur: I remember asking my creative writing professor at the University of Waterloo in Canada—I was doing a mix of arts and business there—for advice. I said, “I have a book of poems I want to publish; what do you think? How can I get it done?” She was like, “There's no market really for poetry; you're not going to get published as a poet. You might as well pick another genre.” So, she told me to submit [to] some anthologies and literary journals. I broke up the poems and I sent them off. And, of course, to no surprise, they weren't accepted by a majority of these publications. At a certain point, I felt I was taking this book apart, sending these poems to all these random places. I was cheating on the body of work, and I felt strongly in my heart that it needed to be experienced [as a whole].
von Furstenberg: So how did you self-publish?
Kaur: There was a platform called Create Space at the time. They would let you upload a PDF for free and help you make sure the formats were all right. You upload a cover, and then that's it. They would approve it. You would get a link. You can promote that link to your followers online and share it anywhere. Your book would be available on Amazon and other online retailers. That was it!
von Furstenberg: That's incredible! And then… it sold!
Kaur: I was still in university at the time, and I thought a few hundred people might buy it. The plan was to pick a more sensible career choice—before I came to university, I wanted to be a fashion designer. I had my whole portfolio made, and then the day before applications, my Dad was like, “Absolutely not, you will fail at this.” So, I went the business route, and writing became my hobby. Performing was my hobby.
von Furstenberg: Not just your hobby, it was your way to express yourself!
Kaur: I didn't know it was doing well because I wasn't from the industry! I didn't know how many copies sold made a bestseller. A lot of poets—contemporary poets before me—use that platform. And then after me, after seeing the success of milk and honey, people were like, “Wait, this thing is viable. We should try it.”
von Furstenberg: We met because years ago you came and spoke at International Women's Day. I heard you at J.P. Morgan. You spoke at the end of this conference—everybody was ready to leave—and you went on stage to read this poem. It was like you were writing about me… It was such an odd, beautiful, and unexpected moment.
Kaur: Yes. I remember. I've been such an admirer of your work, as somebody who's loved fashion. I remember vintage shopping in high school, discovering the first wrap dress I found, and realizing that you invented it. My brain sort of exploded because I was like, “How could somebody invent something that is just so seminal to the fabric of fashion?”
So when we first met, I remember being so, so excited. You shared that story about your mom in your amazing documentary. I remember thinking, “Wow, what a powerful woman, and what a life she's come from.” [While] I was sitting there, I was also reflecting nervously on the poem I was about to perform. The poem is called Woman Who Will Not Die, and it's about this woman who goes up against all odds. Everybody wants to see her lose, but she overcomes every challenge and evolves—again and again. And as I was listening to you speak, hearing about your story and your mom, I thought, “Oh my God, those two women are the women I'm talking about in my poem.” I also thought, “Diane's such a busy woman, she's not even going to be able to stay for my part.”
But I remember being up there and performing, watching you watch me, and I was so grateful that you got to hear me express something that I felt so powerfully. When we connected on it afterward, I remember the first thing you said: you walked up to me—you almost walked up on stage—and you said, “I'm that woman.” And I was like, “I know you are. I'm so glad that I can tell you that you are.”
von Furstenberg: I know, it was a very magical moment. I have to say, I love words. Words have so much power. Words are magical. I adore wonderful poems and poets, but I'm not a poet. Poetry is not really my first place for literature, but your kind of poetry is. When I looked at this book yesterday, and I looked at the drawings, they were beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. There's one [drawing] of a woman, and it says, “I'm learning how to love him by loving myself.” There's another poem called, "it's your voice that undresses me." I mean, how beautiful is that? And, uh, "changing other people isn't my responsibility. I am the only project I need to be working on." That is really my philosophy—the most important thing in life is the relationship with yourself.
I didn’t know what I wanted to be when I was growing up, just like you, but I knew the kind of woman I wanted to be—one who was in charge. I was very lucky because I became in charge very early in life, and it was because of a little dress. That little dress connected me with other women because they could try the dress and feel that confidence.
So, I became a conduit very quickly. I connected with thousands of women, and it became like a movement—this idea of being in charge. And then I thought, what does it really mean to be in charge? To be in charge is not an aggressive statement. It's a commitment to yourself. It's owning who you are. You own your imperfections—they become your assets. You own your vulnerability—it turns into strength, right?
Kaur: Mm-hmm.
von Furstenberg: But lately, I’ve realized that once you have that, it should be a daily practice. You cannot lose yourself when you're super successful; you have to bring yourself down. Don’t believe your own hype—be humble. When you're not doing well, and you’ve just failed or got fired or whatever, you should say, "Okay, that door closed; it’s for another one to open." But the relationship you have with yourself, you have to use that every day, always. That’s why I’ve written a diary all my life. You wouldn’t believe how many diaries I’ve given away to you.
Kaur: <Laughs>
von Furstenberg: That’s that communion with yourself. Once you do that, you can connect, expand, inspire, and advocate. That means paying attention to others and realizing that you have a magic wand. Every single day, one of the first things I do is connect someone to someone they would’ve never had the opportunity to meet. You don’t need to speak; you don’t need to leave a message. All you have to do is write a thoughtful email that describes the person the way you want them to be described, and you create miracles. The more miracles you create, the more energy and karma you generate. I’ve realized kindness is a currency. Just like money, it compounds—generosity is your best investment.
It’s just like what we were talking about earlier. You and I connected. I listened to your poem and thought, "Oh my God, this is me." I waited for you to come out of the stage because I wanted to. And that’s why you write and draw—you express your flow. It reaches somebody. You said you’re from Punjab?
Kaur: Yes.
von Furstenberg: Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Punjab where five rivers flow?
Kaur: Yes!
von Furstenberg: Exactly. So you know about flowing. You were born from a flow, and your role is to give that energy out. I can’t wait for us to do more things together. I think that anyone who hears this conversation will know it's a conversation between two women who care deeply about freedom. Women who have found their own strength within themselves and want to share it with as many people are willing to listen.
Kaur: Thank you, Diane. I use you as a sort of north star to be braver and to always chart unfamiliar territory. I have many, many more questions that I’ll ask you for years to come, I’m sure.
